Interview: How To Build Your List With Podcasts

Audience Building Strategies for Content Businesses

Audience Building Strategies for Content Businesses

Welcome to the Marketing Show Podcast.

Listen as Clay interviews Jason VanOrden and Jeremy Frandsen (the fathers of modern podcasting) on how to build your list with podcasts.

Jason and Jeremy talk about their exodus from what they call the cubical wasteland, and share their journey of building Internet Business Mastery, one of the most successful internet marketing podcast of all time.

In this episode you will learn:

– The formula for finding your SMP (Single Motivated Purpose)
– The minimum amount of equipment and resources you need to start podcasting
– How to have instant credibility right out of the box
– How to move people off your podcast and on to your email list
– How to use your podcast content to presell
– How to determine your target market, and who your audience should be

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Clay: Hello everyone, my name is Clay Collins, and I am joined today by Jeremy Frandsen and Jason Van Orden, the veritable pioneers, the fathers in a lot of ways to of the modern poscasting movement that’s been happening in the small business space and the marketing space. Welcome to the program, guys.

Jordan: Thanks, Clay.

Jeremy: Yeah, thanks for having us on even though we’re the old guys.

Jordan: Or seemingly if you’ve been doing it 7 years, apparently, you’re the great grandfathers possibly now, with internet terms.

Clay: Yeah, I mean I bet you guys can actually like trace the lineage. So you guys have been doing this for a while and I’d love to hear about when you started, how you started, and what things were like back in the day before the space had really matured?

Jordan: Well, back in our days…

Jeremy: Yeah, that’s what it sounds like.

Jordan: Yeah, well I guess, you know, not to believe in origin story because I don’t want to bore anybody, but there are a few key points I think to be drawn from the story that Jeremy and I have, both individually and together, and you know, both of us come from the cubicle wasteland, you know, being in the cubicle, or in Jeremy’s case, the cubicle office that actually had…

Jeremy: …I have beat up. I’m older so I got all the way to the office.

Jordan: He had a couple more years on him. You know, and just having that time in your life where you’re going away, you know, that Sunday dread of oh man, I got to go back to work in the morning. My time doesn’t feel like my own even though you’ve reached the supposed pinnacle of what you’re supposed to do, still not fulfilled, and you know, both of us have very searching process that took us through a myriad of, you know, experiences including real estate investing and the nouveau riche for, you know, Jeremy, or you know, Rich Dad Poor Dad, and Ron LeGrand and stuff like that. And that searching pro – I mean I don’t know what to point like taking the exam to go and get my BA, and really, in the end, I just realized I was just trying to escape the cubicle in whatever way, but you know, thankfully, even though neither of us really enjoyed the real estate investing thing because it’s just not in our personality and now we understand why, it’s because it’s not our what we call the single motivating purpose, which is, you know, we both spent years trying to figure out what that is for ourselves and to find it very, very quickly was not fulfilled by the different business things we are dabbling in.

Both of us did quit our jobs called Turkey and just said okay, well, we’re going to figure this out even though we had really had no idea what we’re going to do and we didn’t know each other yet at that point. It was well 2003, and each of our case is just funny, the parallel paths that we took, and then those paths finally joined because we’re both in the real estate investors association, our club, and I was upfront to that club at one point, you know, talking about marketing tips and tactics and – because what I was fulfilled by, I was actually sharing knowledge and resources and teaching, and so I’d come up with an information product because my study of investing in real estate had thankfully led me to Dan Kennedy, and because Dan Kennedy and Ron LeGrand were kind of buddies and so I was like oh wait, this guy, Dan Kennedy, is talking about information products. Now that, that sounds interesting, and then that, of course, leads me to like finding out about guys like Yanik Silver, and like oh, you can do this online.

So that was it. Once I heard that, I’m like bam. I booked my first seminar. I took, you know, action. In probably like within 3 weeks, I was holding this seminar, basically ripped off a sequence I saw Dan Kennedy do, and just adjusted it for my particular event. I put 25 people in a room to teach them how to find market to find buyers and sellers. I found out that I was actually decent at marketing through being in bands and figuring out how do I get people to come buy my CD and show up to my shows and things like that. And so, my music aspirations had lead me actually to realize that skill, and now I was using it and applying it inside of real estate investing and teaching it to others. Well, Jeremy saw me upfront in this group going, “Hey, I’ve got this product to teach. They had a market. You find buyers and sellers,” and he’d had a similar aha moment about information…

Jeremy: With Dan Kennedy as well.

Jordan: With Dan Kennedy, yeah. And so I got an email one day saying would you like to talk? I’m intrigued by what you’re doing here, and thus…

Jeremy: Let’s have lunch. Even though we looked like a 12-year-old boy at the time, and we were all like, you know, everybody in the room, I thought I was the youngest until I saw him. Everybody’s like 40 or 50, you know, in real estate and stuff, and I thought I was all young until he got up, “Hi, guys.” What the heck is this little boy doing up there?

Jordan: And of course, Dan Kennedy looks like he was born 90 years old, you know.

Jeremy: Oh yeah. But yeah. Then it went from, you know, me emailing him and saying, “Hey, let’s get together for lunch.” That lead to us getting together for lunch quite often, and it lead to, you know, him one day going, “Hey, yeah, there’s this podcasting thing where we can do kind of like our own radio show,” and I was like, “Let’s do it.


Let’s do it now. What are we going to do it on?”

Clay: Wow.

Jeremy: Well, we were like, well, we love talking about this whole internet marketing thing. Let’s just do a show totally for a hobby, and it became, like a few days later, we recorded our first episode, and my background, like I said, I was kind of a cubicle thing, but I was in the entertainment industry. So I kind of knew how to put together a show and we both – You know, he had a music background so we were able to come up with the show concept, and you know, about a year after we started as a complete hobby – We didn’t even do it consistently. It was just whenever we got around to it – suddenly, people started asking us. Hey, where’s your course? We want to buy it.

Clay: Nice.

Jeremy: And we were like, hey, we didn’t even think of this because we had our own businesses that we were running, and we just – We basically wanted to make the show be just like when we would meet for lunch and talk about the cool things we had done, the cool things we had failed at, like we wanted to like give all the secrets to each other, and do it in the show.

Clay: So when did the first show go live? What was the air date?

Jordan: September of 2005.

Clay: That’s amazing.

Jeremy: So a long time ago.

Clay: Wow.

Jeremy: In the internet terms. iTunes podcasting wasn’t even a thing yet like iTunes haven’t even latched on to it. In fact, Google didn’t even know. If you search for podcasting back then, Google would have said, “Do you mean and suggested some notes to?”

Clay: That’s incredible. And so how many episodes are you in now?

Jordan: We’re up to – I think we’ve just recorded 185. And like he said, we weren’t very consistent for the first year, so I mean now, for the last 3 or 4 years, we’ve been very consistent about 3 episodes a month. We take one week off in the month, but you know…

Jeremy: So it’s kind of like the TV show thing. You’ll have like 3 episodes in a row, and then we’ll have like a week off, and then 3 episodes in a row kind of a thing.

Clay: Cool. And what lead up to you teaching podcasting and – I mean I’m sure you probably didn’t start this, start podcasting thinking you would be teaching others how to do podcasting. What brought that about?

Jordan: Well actually, it did start that way for me. I mean I – Even with the info marketing online like the real estate course I made. That still wasn’t really fulfilling for me, and so when that word podcasting popped up, and I was thinking about the technology that might come from that, and I was like, you know, this is going to be a significant shift in communications and marketing and – It was in perfect convergence of my enjoyment of teaching, my technical and audio background, and my desire to help people, you know, get their voice out there, and particularly my fascination with the internet and marketing.

So it did actually start with me going well, I want to become the world’s foremost expert in how do you use podcasting for business, you know, to get people to take action, to get people to buy, but of course, in doing that, I was like well, I need to start a couple shows in order to like have any credibility with this, and I started three shows; one of which – You know, actually, I had two shows that I’ve wanted to do. One was just totally for fun about New York City. One was specifically about podcasting for business, and then the third one just – that came out of the conversations with Jeremy like you just said, and so actually, my goal – And that’s why it was a hobby for a while. My goal was just to completely focus on being this foremost expert in podcasting, and Jeremy had his own business stuff. It was just this fun thing we did in the middle together, but after, you know, 2, 3 years of this growing and becoming more popular, it became clear to us that it was something maybe we should really focus on like a business itself. The podcast itself was a business.

Clay: That’s really interesting. So since teaching this, some of your students have been, you know, Pat Flynn, which a lot of people know; Maren Kate from Zirtual; Mark Mason; Dan Andrews and his cohost at Lifestyle Business Podcast. Anyway, it’s just – It feels like – I know some of those people, you know, had told me that they’d learned from you. When did you kind of get the sense that – you know, that a lot of people were kind of copying your methods or learning from you because I really – I really get the sense today when I trace back who kind of got me interested in podcasting and who learned from them like I kind of get the sense that I might not be doing this right now if you guys hadn’t started back in the day. When were you starting to get a sense that you were really starting to have a meaningful impact on the podcasting space?

Jordan: When you start seeing students filling up the new and notable and front pages of their different categories, that’s, I think, when you start going oh, this is cool in all different categories, obviously, not just internet marketing.

Clay: Right, cool.

Jeremy: Yeah, that’s really fulfilling to see. It was – I mean we were, like you said, one of the very, very first to be in the small business internet marketing space to use podcasting and that trend – and that’s a huge lesson to learn so we watch for those trends because that trend really is what launched our business, you know, internet business master. Now it’s grown beyond, you know, just the podcasting space, but about 2009 –


– So we were doing this for like 3 or 4 years before, then I really started seeing a lot of other people start to jump on this bandwagon of podcasting within our space and others lot of wonderful shows out there, and so then, you know, I’ve told this directly that they were inspired by our show to start what they do, and then we’ve had people say, “You know, wait a second. I was inspired by their show, and their show is inspired by your show, so I guess I’m like the second generation of,” which is funny, that one, on the internet. Seven or eight years becomes two generations of development, but that’s kind of what has taken place, and so it is pretty cool to notice that happening. It just means that now, we have to continue to innovate, take it to the next level so that we can do the extent out within our own market.

Jordan: Compete with your own students if you will.

Jeremy: Right.

Clay: Cool. So I’d like to get into some tactics now for podcasting, and before I do that, one thing that I like to always do is kind of, you know, break down just at a very basic level the minimum equipment and resources someone will need to create a podcast. So what do you think is sort of like the minimum effective dose in terms of a microphone and the equipment that I need to get started with the podcast? And I say that realizing that really, you’re going to have all the best equipment in the world, but if you don’t know sort of the theory behind it, and if you don’t know audience growth strategies, and you don’t know how to, you know, carve out a niche for yourself, and if you don’t know how to move your audience from your podcast to your list, like there’s a whole bunch of other things you have to get, but what do you think is the minimum effective dose in terms of podcasting equipment? What do you guys recommend?

Speaker: Yeah, so podcasting has been around long enough, and enough big brands have come into it that I do think there is a minimum level of production that you should strive for. Now the good news is that it doesn’t need to cost you a lot of money. The technology has gotten very, very inexpensive, and you know, we’ve produced our show out of our own homes that we actually even live in two different states, you know, sometimes, sitting in our sweats recording our show – nobody will know that – but it sounds, you know, it has a certain level of professional in the sound, and we’ve upgraded our equipment over time, but for somebody just getting started, the easiest thing to do would be to grab a – And I’m assuming audio podcast of your video. It goes give it a little more technical, a little more complex, but let’s just start with audio.

Audio, you just need a microphone, and there’s a lot of really great USB microphones that you can just plug again and use right away. Plug in basically like a printer, and it will be ready to go, and a couple that come to mind, for instance, there’s a company by the name of Blue that makes a microphone called the Yeti…

Speaker: Yup.

Speaker: …and the Blue Yeti is – I believe you can get them for around $100 now. There’s a pro version and non-pro version, and really, even the non-pro which is just USB only is fine.

Speaker: But the reason for this, you get a nice clean sound into your computer and it’s built with technology that’s very similar to the kinds of microphones you would see used in radio studios and things like that, and you know, people have become programmed to expect a certain kind of sound out of a radio show. The nice thing about a podcast is you’re going to do whatever you want at the same time by at least hitting some of those key points in the production workflow that you have, you sound legitimate right out of the box like people, they hear your shift the first time, they go wow, these people sound like they know what they’re doing, and one of the best ways to do that is just to get a good microphone.

Clay: Oh, what else might you need to start recording a podcast? Is there anything else in terms of recording technology? What do you – Do you recommend like call recorder or what do you like using there?

Jason: Yeah, so when it comes to actually recording then on your computer, there is a free software by the name of Audacity that does a perfectly fine job when you’re getting started, and that works in both PC or Mac. That’s spelled A-U-D-A-C-I-T-Y. I know a lot of podcasters that use that. I’ve got a free tutorial on – If you search for how to podcast, my tutorial sits the one right at the top, and I’ve got a free Audacity tutorial right there on that site that people can check out, and that allows you to, you know, hit the Record button, talk if you mess up. You can always stop, edit things out. You can add music in if you want very easily, and again, it’s free.

Now later on, for workflow’s sake, you might get to the point where you upgrade to a little bit nicer software or you hopefully get to the point where you just outsource that. That’s what we do. We just hand it over to somebody else for probably around $30 or so, $30 to $40 an episode that’s taking care of for us, but you don’t need to be any kind of wizard to make this software work. You can even put together your own show.

So USB microphone and this Audacity software, save it off as an MP3 out of Audacity, and essentially, there you go. You’ve got a podcast that would be ready to publish online.

Jeremy: Well, and I wanted to also mention that I believe our editor actually uses


that free software still to edit.

Jason: Yeah.

Clay: What about for doing interviews like for three-way stuff like this? What – Do you guys usually use Skype or – What do you do to connect that call up?

Jason: Yeah, Skype is going to offer you the best quality, I mean over a phone line for sure. The ideal – So there’s the ideal, ideal thing would be that everybody like kind of what we’re doing, the three of us right here. We call each other on Skype, but each of the three of us is recording our own audio. So if somebody would listen to my recording after we were done, they would hear silence and then me talking, and then silence and then me talking, but we – It’s easy for that to sink up afterwards and then the sounds like we were all in the same room while we were talking. You’d get absolute highest quality.

Now not everybody can do that if they’re interviewing somebody like let’s say you have opportunity to get Seth Godin on your show, you know, you might not be like, “Hey Seth, can you record your own audio for me?” I don’t know. He probably knows how to do it like, you know, you just like – You probably have 30 minutes in a phone number to call. In that case, using Skype to call out to the phone number is what we would do. Or a Skype to Skype call, that kind of thing. So on Mac, call recorder is great and expensive. It sounds like that’s what you’re using or then on the PC, there’s a software called Pamela for Skype, and that’s the same thing. So it’s about a $30 software you start at the Skype call. You hit the Record button and it records exactly what Skype is hearing you and the other person or the whole group for that matter.

Jeremy: And by the way, as a side note, Jason and I have been doing the show now, you know, 7 or so years, almost 8 years, and we’ve never once done the show together in the same room.

Clay: Wow.

Jeremy: So you don’t have to – You know, if you’re going to have, you know, a cohost or that kind of thing, you can do it in a way he talked about the first time, and it works beautifully, and it sounds like you are in the same room even though we live in different states. We’ve never, you know, lived at the same place doing this entire business.

Clay: Yeah, that’s incredible. That’s incredible. You know, it strikes me that I’ve never – I’ve never interviewed before two cohost or two co-founders of a company, and so, I’m really kind of stoked to ask this question that I’m about to ask, so in a second, we’re going to talk about different podcasting strategies, how to do lead generation using your podcast and things like that, and we’re going to delve into some very specific tactics, but first, I want to – I guess I want to ask you – I’ll start with you, Jeremy. You guys have been doing this for a long time, and you know, I’ve never heard of you guys having ups and downs. I’m sure you have because it’s inevitable on any kind of partnership, but I’d like to hear your perspective on working with a cohost and any general tips you might have for maintaining a strong business relationship over time because in most cases, they burn out, right. They just don’t work. And so it’s remarkable that you have. I’d love to hear your perspective on what you guys have done to make this work.

Jeremy: Well, I think the key was really, in some ways, we got lucky just because we happen to be very similar as we started talking and both had the kind of personalities that worked together whereas, you know, like neither of us are really heavy type A personalities, so we fit really well together. The other thing really is we have the same single motivating purpose or at least really similar basically we do this. So you know, we’re able to, you know, really work together well because we both, you know, basically have the same passion for what we’re doing, and the cool thing is we have different voices, and luckily, they help each other rather than, you know, both people trying to do the same kind of thing.

So for instance, you know, on our show, you’ll see that Jason usually takes the lead, and he generally is the main teacher. Like he’s – Jason, you know, we’ve talked about this, and he very well could be a professor, right, out in the real world, and it kind of is what we do anyway, but you know, at a college or something like that. He, you know, thinks that way. He’s just really, really good at going, “Okay, here’s the seven tips. This is exactly what they are,” and then I kind of come in with more of the inspiration stories, trying to add that you can do it side to it.

Clay: Nice.

Jeremy: Now of course, before we do the show, we discuss a lot of it together I trying to figure out what direction we’re going with things, but we let each other take the roles that fit us perfect, and you know, for the first, I don’t know, even a couple of years, we tried to do everything even, you know, exactly equal. Okay, there are six points. You take three of them. I’ll take three of them.

Jason: Right.

Jeremy: If you say this much, then I’ve got to say this much. And we later, you know, as we really started


honing in on, you know, just ourselves and who we are and what roles we actually enjoy, we were able to just luckily, we didn’t want the same role per se. we had the roles that we would fit. Now, if we both wanted to take the lead and always be the one talking the most, that kind of stuff, it wouldn’t have worked, but in this particular case, we both fit very, very well into kind of being equal in just a different way.

Clay: I think that’s some of the best advice I’ve ever heard on making partnerships work. You mentioned your single motivating purpose. I love to hear it from either of you out, you know, what that is.

Jeremy: Go ahead, Jason.

Jason: Well, we just know what that is individually through, you know, doing reading books and talking to people. We’re just noticing in our lives when we’re most fulfilled, when are we in a state of flow, what are the things people value in us most, and we’ve come down to a single statement for each of us that defines that single motivating purpose, and this is something we just recorded an episode about that we’re going to be putting out here soon, but the single motivating purpose for me is to share knowledge and resources that helps people to live lives of freedom, fulfillment, and purpose. So the formula for an SMP is you do blank in order to blank, and this is the thing that gets you up in the morning. It’s the thing that makes you happy. It’s the thing that you’re meant to do, and you know, I’m very thankful to have not only a business that focuses on that SMP for me because clearly, that makes me happy to do so, but then also, that just shows up in all facets of my life; my parenting style, my hobbies, the books I read, you know, all kinds of things like that. And then our business has an SMP as well, but I’ll let Jeremy share what his is.

Jeremy: Yeah, mind is I inspire purpose-driven action that leads to freedom, fulfillment, and happiness, and if you can kind of remember Jason’s, I mean we’re really, really close. I’m very, very much and I always have been since like as far back as I can remember. I mean I remember even being 15 and just loving to inspire my friends in one way or another, or you know, helping them with issues that they had and really like being the guide to go you can do this. I’ll even show you 10 reasons why…

Jason: Yeah.

Jeremy: …you know, based on knowing you like I was that guy, and you know, Jason’s, he talks about sharing knowledge and resources like he does that for me all the time, and like it used to be at the way where I would go, “Hey, do you know how to do this?” and you know, he would – That’s through Skype, and then all of a sudden, he’d come back, you know, a couple minutes later with this whole thing and I’d go, “Wow, I didn’t know you knew how to do this,” and he’d be like, “Oh, I went and found it out for you. I learned it all for you.” And I was like, “What the…” And I always feel like I was bothering him with that until we realize like that’s his – that’s what he is. You know, that’s his purpose…

Jason: I’m glad to do it.

Jeremy: …like it fits him. He actually really enjoys doing it, and now I do it probably way too much, but I don’t know where the point is, where you start going okay, you’ve passed my SMP, but I’ll find it within, but anyway, so you know, they align really, really well. We’re both very, very much about helping people find that freedom whether it’s financial freedom or in our personal lives. We have – You know, we help people with emotional freedom, all this different, you know, even political freedom, all these things that we do in our own personal lives that still are a part of that SMP.

Clay: I think that’s really good. One thing, you know, and we’ll transition here to some lead generation ideas, but one of the things that you said that really struck Jeremy was you said we love the beginner, and you said it with such enthusiasm and authenticity, and it really struck me because I don’t hear a lot of people saying that they love beginners. I’ve heard a lot of people say that they help beginners. You know, I’ve heard a lot of people, you know, sort of decide on that as sort of like that’s going to be their like angle or their niche, their market, but you know, and it’s sort of the – you know, just on the back channel I’m hearing that they really don’t kind of like it, and you know, there’s all this different things, and I think you might be the first person I’ve ever heard say that they actually enjoy helping beginners, and I thought that was kind of remarkable, and I think it’s really cool that you’ve decided that that’s what you’re going to focus on.

Jeremy: Well, there’s this thing about taking somebody that has this desire, but they’re not sure what to do with it or even if they believe they can do something with it, and I mean like I personally believe that if you have that desire, you can do it or you wouldn’t even have that desire at all. So in terms of this internet business stuff, being able to work with those people and not only help them with kind of the mindset stuff – We like to talk a lot about the mindset stuff because in the end like learning how to set up auto responders like there’s 50 different people that could show that, but you know, surrounding the technical knowledge and the steps that you need to take to actually get this business going, there’s all these mindset


traps that we have to get through, and I love helping people through those. And Jason and I, you know, just have found over the years that we’re absolutely dedicated to helping people do that, and it’s basically our mission.

Clay: That’s awesome. Cool. Well, let’s move now to kind of the three tactics that I think we’re going to cover. The first thing, which I think is probably – It’s the thing that sticks out most in my mind when I think about the things that I learned from you guys is the – you know, who’s at the free thing that you do to move people off of the podcast to your list. I know it’s a really huge concern when people do podcast or things on YouTube or whatever that they’re not going to be able to transfer that audience in a meaningful way to their email list, and so, you know, I’d love it if one of you would walk me through your strategy for doing that.

Jeremy: Yeah, the podcast plays a really, really important role in our sales funnel. You know, a lot of people get fuzzy on what is the purpose of a podcast? How do you make money with podcast? Does advertising play? Is it just a oh, I’m just out there to get exposure and have my name out there? But for us, it’s absolutely front end of a sales funnel or what we called the money map. I mean the money map is about getting people from, you know, just finding out about you all the way down to buying from you, and the podcast actually plays a role all the way through that, and the front of the money map is getting people’s attention, and our podcast does that by putting value out in all kinds of really great channels, one of which is iTunes, which has, you know, over a half a million people trained by content with credit cards attached to their accounts, searching for stuff to fill their iPods and their iPhones, so there, it’s a traffic thing, which is important. Obviously, we all need traffic for lead generation.

And then the second step in this money map is now we got to get their permission to follow up with them, and it’s a great way for them to go hey, we’ve got these podcasts that are coming out every week. If you’d like them, you know, subscribe to the podcaster or at least it’s the way you keep them engaged in building up that relationship. They get to hear our voices. They’re walking the dog listening. It’s just us and them they’re taking to the gym. We hear over and over people going, “You know, before I get on the plane, I make sure to download the latest episodes of Internet Business Master.” You hear people saying things like, “Hey, I just drove with you guys from LA to Florida this summer, and you know, so thank you very much for…” And we’re like, “Hey, great.” You know, if only we lost way and earned sky miles for the times that people listened to use while doing these things that would be awesome.

Jordan: Yeah, we become a part of their life, like when people meet us later, they feel like they already have that connection to us, like they – They’re like I’ve known you for years. I’ve been listening for years. Like that’s an amazing, amazing thing I just wanted to point out.

Clay: Yeah, I really do think that audio podcast, when in terms of ability to connect with people, because they’re hearing your voice, they’re getting your personality, but they’re not tied to the computer so they can do a lot around their treadmill. They can do it. You know, they might just listen to a podcast after their girlfriend or boyfriend breaks up with them. They’re walking around and cleaning the house, and so I think you get access to people along the way that you just can’t through, you know, through visual means, and I think it’s really remarkable in that sense.

Jeremy: So now that when – I mean so that’s all about, you know, getting the traffic and kind of prepping them to go and get that, you know, I can trust, when the river meets the road, like you got to get the email. I mean email list still are where we make most of our money, and so that’s why the call-to-action as every piece of content should have a call-to-action. The call-to-action for every one of our episodes is to get on to our email list, and the way we do that is, you know, we have our incentive, and the beginning of the show, sometimes in the middle of a show and definitely at the end of the show, we’re saying look for our road map of how to get started the right way to start an internet business that allows you to, you know, live your purpose and get paid to do it. You know, there’s different copies that we use at times, but then, you know, we give them that reason why that they want to go because look, they are out walking their dog, and so we got to definitely make sure we’d make it clear and easiest to what to do to get on that email list.

So it’s about giving them that URL to go and sign up right now. So you know, on our show, we say, so head over now to It’s something that’s easy for people to remember if they are out and about to jot down maybe on their phone or to type in any given moment, and that’s how we get people off for the podcast and on to our list, and clearly, if they’ve done that, they’re very, very qualified lead by the time they’re entering their email on that page, and that landing page, gets a very high, you know, conversion rate relatively speaking because of that.

Clay: Cool. So I think what most people do is they have a podcast. They have no clear call-to-action to go to a specific URL, and if they do have a clear call-to-action to go to a specific URL to opt in,


they don’t give an incentive. So you know, it sounds like you’re doing a lot of things right here. One, it’s It’s very easy to remember. It’s not like yadiyadi URL forward slash yadiyada forward slash, you know, whatever. It’s very quick to say two, you’re giving them a reason to opt in. they have this gift that they can go ahead and download; and three, you’re making that call-to-action, again, in the beginning, the middle, and the end of the podcast, and it sounds like what you’re doing is Head and Shoulders buff what other people are doing, you know, with regards to that. So I think that’s a cool strategy. I like that quite a bit. I wish I had a URL to send everyone listening to this to right now, but I don’t, so I’ll just keep on going.

Cool. So I guess the second thing that’d be kind of interesting to talk about is how you use podcast content to pre-sell. It sounds like you have some cool little strategies for implementing that.

Jeremy: So yeah. I mean the podcast is great. I mean we’ve already touched on the relationship and engagement building advantages of having a podcast, but then there’s other ways, and what we’re definitely always thinking when we create the content about how to prep that person to want to buy from us, how to get that person ready so that when we do ask for that – I mean we never sell them the podcast, but obviously, once we get them on that email list, they’re getting auto responders, and that relationship is continuing, and at some point shortly thereafter, we’re going to be putting that off in front of them.

And so we want them thinking, you know, things like well, okay, yeah. Clearly, these guys know what they’re talking about. I like these guys. I can tell that I connect with their values and who they are, and so one of the things we do to do that on the podcast is tell a lot of stories even right out of our own lives because stories are a great way to communicate your values. We’re also very conscious about being just truly us. You know, one of the best compliments I get is when we do have dinner with a listener of the show that they say, “Wow, in person, you’re just like you are on the show.” I mean I’m glad to hear that, you know. It’s like we’re not putting on any airs. We’re showing who we are. So people go yeah, well, okay. These people, these guys, they believe the kinds of things I believe. They have passion for the kinds of things I have passion for.

So of course, I’d like to do, you know, business with them. And these are just, you know, kind of the subtle things of setting up that relationship. Some of the more specific things as far as pre-selling goes is we have – Every month, we do at least one episode where we’re interviewing a success story, a success story of somebody who went through our courses and materials, and we’ve definitely seen when we have a really solid success person where the person just nails it as far as sharing the results, and you know, they’re passionate, and obviously talking about how our academy course helped them that up taken sales definitely happens over the week following an episode like that. I mean that’s just social proof, right. It’s the proof. It’s all right there.

Jordan: And it’s funny – It’s funny because that is very subtle as well like we don’t have to say, “Oh my gosh, you got to join the academy. Join the academy. Join the academy,” to where it becomes a sale fest the entire podcast, and in fact, we never say to join our academy, which is just our, you know, course that we have. The only time it’s really said is if, you know, during one of our segments or during one of our interviews, somebody actually says, “Well, you know, when I was taking the academy that actually got me really started, and it made me think this,” and it’s like the subtle thing where this other person now is selling for you without it sounding like it’s selling, which is a huge, huge thing. We try to be, you know, really careful and subtle about that.

And even when we mention go to free audio or video gift, we have both of them, you know, we try and be very, very quick with it. You know, make it so it doesn’t feel like we’re trying to sell anything because, of course, it’s a free gift there. We’re not selling them that, but it’s still, we just didn’t want it to sound salesy. We wanted it to sound like we’re all sitting in a coffee shop, and it just happens to be Jason and I talking, and they’re sitting, they’re listening. We wanted that feel whereas at a coffee shop, you wouldn’t turn to the person and go, “Hey, and by the way, buy at our academy, right? You want to buy at our academy? Do you want to buy at our academy?” like every 5 minutes.

Jeremy: Academy, academy, buy it?

Jordan: This is insane. Yeah, why do you keep saying that? Like you’d never do that, so we tried to have that feel with the show, and it seems to be working pretty well.

Clay: Yeah, I really like that. I mean I imagine, and seeing your stuff, it seems like you are somewhat prohibited from doing event-based marketing on a podcast. You can’t really say, you know, you’ve got to purchase like there’s a sale, and it’s 50% off for the next 3 days, or that kind of thing because people are listening to this at, you know, various times throughout. You know, they might be – You know, they might listen to that podcast a month later, and it won’t apply anymore.

Jeremy: Right.

Clay: So are you restricted like that or can you actually do event-based promotional


marketing on a podcast?

Jordan: When it comes to launching products that’s all done mostly through our email list. I mean we might use Twitter and Facebook and our blog a bit, but by far, you know, the bulk of the clicks, the bulk of the sales are coming from people that have gone onto the email list. So yeah, the podcast is all about what happens before the launch, before you make the offer. It’s all about prepare, greasing the wheels so that everything is nice and ready when it does come time to make that offer.

So yeah, when it comes through like launches and really timely offers, we don’t use the podcast in direct ways to make those sales, but it’s obviously playing a very important part in that whole process. And here’s the nice thing is like we’ve had coaching course that has sold for $6,000, and out of curiosity, we asked those people the last time we offered this, you know, how long ago they have heard of us. So we had people signing up for that class that had only heard of us like 6 weeks before that. We thought what we’re going to hear is, “Oh yeah, I’ve listened to the show for a year or so. I’ve been through your academy already, and now, I was ready for this high-end coaching.” But we had people in there that were like, “Now I found your show about 1-1/2 month ago, and after listening to you guys, it was clear you’re the ones I needed to learn from.” But that you know – So the podcast prepared all that, but it was the email list that actually then put the offering in front of them.

Clay: Cool, cool. So one of things when we were talking earlier, I was mentioning that it would be really cool if there were a way to figure out how to decide what your market is and what your podcast audience should be. So I’ve seen people express this as a series of variables that you can nail down, for example. Are you going to talk to beginners or are you going to talk to intermediate people? Are you going to talk to experienced people? Are you more inclined to speak to men or to women? Are you interested in, you know, doing character-based marketing or marketing for people with a more analytical bets? Are you interested like – There are these different matrices where you can kind of lay out and maybe even scatter plot or quick quadrants where everyone lies, and you can kind of use these variables to figure out how you want to classify your own market, and how – Do you have any advice on that? You said earlier that you had some kind of market tool or tool for figuring this out. What do you have in other words?

Jeremy: Yeah. I mean those are all useful questions, but I’d say the first tip is to forget all about those demographics and psychographics and numbers and plots and things. Ask yourself two questions. First of all, ask yourself what audience or market am I a member of or a past version of myself is a member of? I mean you have to remember we’re teaching beginners and I think that that’s one huge way to give yourself a leg up when you’re just starting a business is go with the market you already understand, you know.

Clay: Cool.

Jeremy: And even right now, I’m listening to Tony [0:38:14] [Indiscernible], and you know, after the artist sold one company, it’s like yeah, you know, after investing in a bunch of different things I learned, it’s like I got to stick to things I actually have a clue about because I can definitely lose a lot of money going after stuff I have no idea.

So you know, when you already know the pains and the desires and what keeps them up at night of a market because that is either who you are right now or somebody you were several years ago, it’s very powerful to be on your podcast and go, “Hey, you know what, I’m glad you found our content. You know, you’re probably here because you hate your job and we know what that’s like to be. we know what it’s like to be up on a Sunday evening not wanting to go to sleep because waking up in the next morning means you got to go to a soul sucking job wondering if you’re actually just going to, you know, be a drone for 40 years before you get to do anything you love.” You know, we can speak to that language that hasn’t go yeah, these guys understand me. So that’s the first thing.

Jordan: Yeah. We’ve lived it.

Jeremy: We’ve lived it.

Jordan: And if it’s not a present or past version of yourself, at the very least, try to pick I guess what I’d say a future version yourself, somebody you want to become. So you know, I’ve seen people be very successful with blogs and podcast going, well, you know what, I really am passionate right now by figuring out how to use DSLR video to make short films, and so I am going to dive into that, and by golly, I’m just going to share my journey. Because – I mean in a way though, that is still them. They are that person that they’re trying to speak to. It’s not that they’re an expert in DSLR video, but they are somebody who are passionate, you know, fervently wants to know about it and so they can talk to you like well then, I was wondering this so I went to figure out this, and I tried this, and oh, it didn’t work, oh but this worked great, and I’m just sharing that. That’s a great – So that’s the first thing to ask yourself.

The second thing to ask yourself is who do you want to work with? Who do you want to deliver value to? Who values who you are and what you have and who would make it the most passionate to work with?


You talked earlier about how Jeremy said we love working with beginners. That’s because seeing the light bulb go off is just amazing. You know, to see somebody who like was, you know, firmly stuck in the matrix, and suddenly, you’ve handed them the red pill, that is awesome. That’s an awesome feeling to see that happen, and so that’s why, you know, we’ve chosen. It wasn’t numbers or market size or this or that and the other. That was a completely purpose-based fulfillment-based decision to start with. And then from there, we might go okay, well yeah, our podcast tend – And you know, we know some of the other things. We tend to attract Gen X, Gen Y, age 25 to like age 50 or so, you know; baby boomer some, but not quite as much. You know, it tends to be more our age bracket plus or minus 10 years…

Jeremy: Yeah, we generally speak too fast for the older crowd.

Clay: Right. That’s awesome.

Jordan: So you know, we know those other things too, and that definitely helps us make marketing decisions, but at the core, it was about who do we really want to work with, and because, you know, there’s no point in wasting time working with people that a.) we can’t help, or b.) it would like just make us miserable to do so.

Clay: Cool.

Jeremy: Yeah, and actually, if we have had said oh, we want just – Let’s say we went wow, there’s probably a lot of money in the baby boomer market, we would have had to change a lot about ourselves personally to really speak to that market, and we kind of went the other way instead of going okay, well, let’s slow our speech down. You know, let’s go really step-by-step because there’s other people out there teaching internet business and they do teach that crowd, and so, instead of teaching tactics on how to use Facebook, let’s say they show them how to sign up for Facebook.

Jordan: Right.

Jeremy: You know what I mean? Like that’s very different. We were like, okay, we don’t want to go that micro – I mean we want to show them step-by-step how to do this, but you know, let’s speak to kind of that old version of us personally. We’d like to be really enthusiastic. We’d like to – We speak fast when we get really passionate, and you know, but we also like really step-by-step in terms of to the degree where we are or where we want our people to start with. They not actually started molding the market and filtering out people that wouldn’t work for us so we basically let the market filter themselves around who we are and who we wanted to work with. As Jason was saying, we pick our audience and then shape the audience to make sure that people that wouldn’t enjoy us don’t. It stays, you know, like they can go. There’s other shows. There’s lots of shows out there now, but we were very clear on being ourselves, being that passion person that wanted to help others do that, and then just letting the chips fall where they may rather than trying to very specifically pick a demographic.

Clay: Cool. I dig it. Alright, well, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge or wisdom, your advice with the Marketing Show podcast audience today. If people want to learn more about you, where can they go?

Jordan: Well, I just encourage them to check out the show.

Clay: Okay.

Jordan: Go to the, and you know, that purpose stuff that we are just talking about really speaks to you. Be sure to listen to episode 185 that will be coming out maybe about the time this or shortly that comes out in about a week from when we’re recording this right now, or just listen to whatever the latest episode is, and then from there, see if you connect with what we’re all about.

Clay: Awesome. Thank you so much, Jeremy and Jason. Thanks for sharing your time, your wisdom. I learned a lot from this. I’m sure my audiences will, and have a great day.

Jeremy: Thank you, Clay.

Jordan: Yeah, thanks for having us here.

Clay: Thank you.

[0:43:31] End of Audio