Kevin Nakao is Head of Sales & Marketing for TinyPulse, a company that helps other companies build stronger teams and higher performing company cultures through employee feedback loops and helping leaders keep a pulse on employee satisfaction. TinyPulse provides leaders the tools to enhance company culture and create positive change for employees.
A Quick Preview of the Podcast:
- Why you should start testing backend metrics with more focus
- The two best places for call-to-actions on your webpage
- The number one metric that should have your concern
To See These Tactics In Action:
To See The Transcript:
Tim: Are your front end metrics the end of the ride when it comes to your focus? If so you might be missing out on major growth opportunities. Kevin Nakao from Tiny Pulse is here to share a few simple methods they’ve used to increase the lifetime value of their customers and achieve negative churn even though their frontend metrics may have suffered a bit. This episode is further proof of the importance of paying attention to the entire process that your customers go through instead of just pieces of it.
I’m Tim Page the conversion educator here at LeadPages and this is ConversionCast.
Hey, Kevin, welcome to ConversionCast. Thanks for coming on the show.
Kevin: Thanks for having me.
Tim: Absolutely. Well I think we can dive right into this. I would love to know what were the results that you were able to get from today’s case study?
Kevin: Yeah. I think what we’ve done is we’ve really focus on long term retention and realization. So we’re ending up with customers that stay with us longer, that use our product. So I focus more on the backend metrics than I do with kind of the frontend. So it’s a signup. In fact we have negative churn and that’s the result of usually we start with one team of people at a company using us and then eventually the entire company will use it so we kind of land and expand.
Tim: I love that. That’s so unique. And that’s what makes us I think so fascinating and why people would be so interested in hearing this. Before we get into kind of the specifics of a couple of things that you did, can you tell us a little bit about what Tiny Pulse is all about?
Kevin: Sure. Tiny Pulse is used by over 500 companies, Stitch Fix, Hubspot really to build stronger teams, higher performing company cultures through just really easy to use employee feedback loops and peer recognition programs. We keep it super lightweight. We send one question a week that really helps leaders and managers keep pulse on their teams. Just like you’re probably looking at your landing page metrics, every week that same type of care and attention really should be spent on your employees to make sure their concerns are being met and you’re getting all the great ideas from them.
Tim: That’s great. I love it. Good and so that kind of sets the stage for what we have in terms of today’s case study. So why don’t we start with the particular you did a study kind of on your copy and the way you position that copy. Can you talk a little bit about what that was and how you came to the conclusion to do what you did?
Kevin: Sure. Tiny Pulse was started by David New and when he first did his first landing page he had in big bold letters, don’t try Tiny Pulse unless you’re al leader who’s committed to change, sharing and action. The reason for that again is he and we are really focused on people getting us to use this. I mean it’s great to get a signup and we want to make sure that we’re helping companies build better cultures. You’re actually worse off if you use Tiny Pulse and you don’t share the results and if you don’t do anything with the feedback sod that’s why we want to help quality our customers a little bit better and tell them this is what it is going to take to be successful. Please don’t even sign up if you’re not committed to doing this.
Tim: Interesting. So it was kind of almost like a negative headline. Like you were telling people why they should may be not give it a try and in doing so you qualified your customers. Do you think, do you know, did you find a higher conversion rate or was that your first landing page?
Kevin: I believe it was a second so it was we ended up getting a higher [[0:03:23]] [indiscernible] conversion rate. Meaning there may have been less people that have actually signed up for the trial but when somebody did sign up and start using it we had a much higher conversion to customer rate. I believe a longer long term retention rate. So that message is not on our site right now. We’re kind of still testing some different things.
Kevin: But we still use a lot of that thought today. In fact when we’re going in and making a big enterprise sale, it’s the same thing. We may meet with somebody that’s the decision maker and our whole approach is we want to make sure you’ve got other [[0:03:59]] [indiscernible] committed to using this. We actually don’t want you to buy this until you try it first because I think what’s happening in our enterprise software today is you just can’t force people down, software down people’s throats anymore. We get to choose what devices they want to use, what tools they want to bring. So we want to make sure this is a tool that’s going to be embraced by managers and is going to be embraced by employees. We really want people to try this out to use it.
Tim: Yeah. It really is. It’s an interesting thing. I find that a lot of folks are not paying attention to the entire process of the entire funnel. You know they’re looking at front end conversions. They’re seeing people opt in to their list or they’re seeing people sign up for a trial and they look at that as a big win. In some cases it can be but I think a lot of the time we’re not looking at what happens after that point and how that very beginning that first touchpoint how that impacts the rest of the funnel. I love that you guys were looking at that.
Have there been any other ways that you’ve used this thought process to I guess increase your company’s overall retention?
Kevin: Yes. So even again with large enterprises we may meet with a decision maker that has the power to get Tiny Pulse in their entire company. We will always try to convince them to start out with one or two divisions first, make sure it works. Because what we see happening is rather than this being a top down decision if it’s something that’s built from the ground up, other divisions start to notice it. We actually end up getting more long term success.
So HubSpot is a great example of this. Their engineering team in Dublin started using us then the home office in Boston found out about it and now the entire company is using us. I think if we had been introduced as this big corporate initiative I think we would have been a lot less successful.
Tim: So if somebody is listening to this and they have a company and they want to implement a strategy like this for their business how would you recommend they go about doing it?
Kevin: always focus on what’s going to drive the long term usage and walk through all of that behavior. It’s really be easy to get lured into kind of short term metrics like sign up rates and reducing bounce rates. But what ultimately matters is how long your customers stay with you particularly for us because we’re a recurring revenue business so most companies pay on a monthly basis. The benefit of that is if you can increase the lifetime value of your customers it gives you so much more money to spend in advertising and you create that flight wheel.
Tim: Yeah that’s right. You know, I think we see a lot of that as well as that if you can focus on not just getting somebody to even sign up, even pay for your service but what’s going to turn them into somebody who sticks with you longer, spends more money and is willing to become somewhat of an evangelist for your company they become so much more valuable. In doing that you can also kind of create a little bit of feedback so that you can use that to further increase that stickiness, keeps one with you longer and make happier customers.
Kevin: Yeah, absolutely.
Tim: I love that. Is there anything else that we didn’t talk about that you think is important for somebody who’s listening to this and wants to try something like this?
Kevin: Yeah. So the other big thing I think I told you I was working on is our designer came to me and he sent me this article it said the fold is dead. I said what you’re talking bout? I’ve been doing digital marketing for 15 years. Being above the fold is everything that we used to fight for —
Kevin: And he shared this great analysis from a guy named – he’s at www.LukeW.com. He’s a director at Google and he basically did this analysis of 25M sessions. He said yeah the most viewed area is just right above the fold. The most engagement happens right at or below the fold.
Kevin: Here’s the big thing. Yeah don’t focus on having your call to action above that fold. Try to do it at the point where somebody is convinced that they want to do more. So if you go to our homepage today on Tiny Pulse, we actually have it in two places. We have it at the very top because we know there’s a lot of customers that we get from referrals or from press who already know who we are and they want to sign up so we make it easy. And then our second call to action is below a lot of the messaging and the information that we have about our service, how it works, who uses it and why it works.
Tim: Yeah that’s really interesting. It seems to be one of those things we have to understand the experience that somebody is going through not just these things that we know people are viewing that spot above the fold but at what point on that page are they going to be ready to make a decision to opt in or sign up for a trial or whatever the call to action is in considering that. That’s a really interesting – that’s an interesting I guess tactic to try out. I would say this, just as a word of warning to anybody listening who think about trying that, it’s really important to test that for your business. Don’t just – just like with any piece of advice, don’t just go out and do it and implement it because you’ve heard that it works. You know try that. Test it against what you’re doing now. See what works better. See what works better in the short term and the long term and then make a decision about what you should stick with in your business. I know that that’s what you guys are doing over at Tiny Pulse. Because you said that. That’s you know you’re trying new things now even though you’ve found kind of that negative headline to work well.
Kevin: Yeah and that’s important for us because we provide the tool but it’s only as good as somebody’s commitment to listen to that feedback and making changes and so for us it’s really important. I’m sure there are other tools out there that don’t require that kind of human follow up part and so may be a negative, I wouldn’t be as appropriate for them.
Kevin: So like every business is a unique and the only thing I’ve learned in doing visual marketing is that what worked yesterday doesn’t work today and something it will be something else different tomorrow.
Tim: Interesting. Well thank you so much for coming on and sharing this with us. I really appreciate you coming on the show.
Kevin: Yeah, thanks for having me.
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